Originally posted 2016-09-06 15:04:06.
Few clinical definitions, established by obscure researchers in obscure institutions, referring to an obscure subject, can have caused more brouhaha than Ray Blanchard’s definition of autogynephilia as ‘a man’s paraphilic propensity to be sexually aroused at the thought or image of himself as a woman.’
But what does it actually mean?
‘Paraphilia is any intense and persistent sexual interest other than sexual interest in genital stimulation or preparatory fondling with phenotypically normal, physically mature, consenting human partners; if a paraphilia causes distress or impairment to the individual or if its satisfaction entails personal harm (or the risk of such harm) to others, it is considered a paraphilic disorder.’ Guy E Brannon, MD
A paraphilia is ‘sexual interest other than sexual interest in genital stimulation or preparatory fondling with phenotypically normal…partners.’ Ahm…
Want to find out what it’s really like to love a transsexual? Read The Warm Pink Jelly Express Train and find out.
What the fuck does that mean?
What is ‘phenotypically normal’ anyway? According to the trusty Oxford, the only dictionary I use:
The set of observable characteristics of an individual resulting from the interaction of its genotype with the environment.
(In this case ‘individual’ means singular organism and ‘environment’ is meant to indicate the hard, physical one, not the social one.)
Rly? I went to school with a girl who had six toes. She was pretty cute. I am sure she fell in love, got married, had kids and in doing so, had a whole heap of sex with one or more men. Were they paraphilic because she was ‘phenotypically abnormal’?
Branner either means something else or he has a logic problem. Suppose I have sex with a woman dressed as a man or a boy might. Say my girlfriend. She likes to slob around the house in an old t-shirt and a pair of training pants ’cause it’s comfy. If I get the hots and tell her ‘On the bed, honey, now’, is that paraphilic? I is confused.
Now the good doctor goes on: ‘…physically mature…partners’. Oh yes, so all those teenage pregnancies are a result of paraphilias. Nothing to do with teenage boys being randy little fuckers. Got it.
‘…Consenting partners.’ OK that I buy.
Eh? I like it when she tickles my balls. Is that ‘preparatory fondling? What about mutual masturbation that does not lead to coitus? That’s a paraphilia? Who knew?
Give us all a break and say what you mean: ‘missionary sex only’.
Only a sexually fucked-up, USican could come up with that. This definition of what is non-paraphilic sex would please the Puritans.
The American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5), lists the following specific paraphilic disorders:
Exhibitionistic disorder (including type I, the inhibited flaccid exposer, and type II, the sociopathic exposer who may have a history of other conduct)
Sexual masochism disorder
Sexual sadism disorder
(this is the current version.)
Yahoo. One is curious as to how dressing in clothes not conforming to social expectations based on your birth sex causes ‘distress or impairment to the individual or personal harm (or the risk of such harm) to others’.
Getting twanged in the testicles by knicker-elastic, perhaps? Smacking someone in the eye when your bra pings loose?
I am reminded of when I took my ex, a lovely girl, zip-lining in Palawan. Basically this meant getting strapped into a parachute harness and then flying through the jungle. Shouting ‘AAAAAIIIIEEEEEIIIIAAA’ was optional.
Anyway, after we got back on terra firma and were heading for lunch, I was aware that my gorgeous companion was limping and leaning on my shoulder heavily.
‘What on Earth is wrong?’ I asked her.
‘Oh, my balls,’ quoth my amour. It seems the harness was not well adapted to a tucked transwoman.
That sort of ‘risk of harm’? Doctor?
The DSM-V goes on to say:
‘Other paraphilias, almost any of which could develop into a paraphilic disorder in certain circumstances, include (but are not limited to) the following:
Asphyxiophilia or hypoxyphilia
Infantophilia (a newer subcategory of pedophilia)
I’m having trouble not laughing here. Look, a significant proportion — probably a majority — of Western autogynephilic transvestites are unqualified dickheads. There’s no doubt that there are few classes of people more likely to be a complete pain in the neck, especially the late-transitioning gynephilic ones, otherwise known as ‘straight blokes in frocks’.
(Oh, and those guys who demonstrably are guys, with their nicely trimmed beards and business suits, but who ‘identify’ as women. Clever scheme to weasel your way into women’s private spaces and ultimately their pants.)
Don’t worry, all the trannies in The Warm Pink Jelly Express Train are hot as hell
But, returning to actual transwomen, is being attracted to the ‘thought or image’ of yourself as a woman really the same as getting off by shitting on a telephone (Telephone scatologia)? Or fantasising about sex with dead people? Eating shit? Suffocating or being suffocated?
Well, I get that you might be a lil bit pissed off. I really do. I mean, come on.
And this could ‘develop into a …disorder’. LIKE WHAT??!! Actually becoming a transwoman? Holy fuck the puritanical sky will fall on our heads, we can’t have that! A woman with a cock? Why, it’s not to be borne!
Thankfully, Blanchard was aware that some confusion might arise from his concept of autogynephilia, which it clearly has, as you can see. So he explained:
‘Autogynephilia denotes the propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of oneself as female. The actual occurrence and extent will vary with time and circumstance. An autogynephile does not necessarily become sexually aroused every time he pictures himself as a female or engages in feminine behavior, any more than a heterosexual man automatically gets an erection whenever he sees an attractive woman. Thus, the concept of autogynephilia — like that of heterosexuality, homosexuality…–refers to a potential for sexual excitation.’ Blanchard 1991 (Underscore mine, italic author.)
Let’s deconstruct all this, shall we? It’s a propensity. A potential. OK. So, it only might happen. It’s a possibility with some added probability. Somewhat more than an outside chance, somewhat less than a likelihood..
So lets go back to Blanchard:
‘An autogynephile does not necessarily become sexually aroused every time he pictures himself as a female or engages in feminine behavior any more than a heterosexual man automatically gets an erection whenever he sees an attractive woman.’
‘The concept of autogynephilia — refers to a potential for sexual excitation.’
Being autogynephilic is not the problem.
Both HSTS and AGP transwomen of the Asian profile (not the Western profile in Asia) are well-adjusted, generally happy, fulfilled people. Being autogynephilic doesn’t make you an Andrea James. Growing up as a hostile, aggressive, thoroughly unpleasant man, will make you a hostile, aggressive, thoroughly unpleasant transwoman, if you transition.
You can’t ‘learn to be a woman’ after 30 years as a man. Old dogs do not learn new tricks.Nor can you unlearn your conditioning that it is the duty of all women to afford you sex, even if you are presenting as a woman yourself — as the ‘Cotton Ceiling’ fiasco demonstrates.
Western culture is the problem.
The problems in the West are caused by Western, particularly USican culture, which ferociously denies sexuality as a motivation for anything. In the USA, baby boys’ genitals are routinely surgically mutilated to prevent them fully enjoying sex, ever. Fathers ritually ‘marry’ their daughters to ‘ensure’ their sexual ‘purity’ without thinking that this is beyond creepy.
USican culture derives this attitude towards sex from the profoundly disturbed Anglo-Saxon culture it is based on. THEN it adds in bucket-loads of shame and guilt from, you know, stealing the land the US is on and committing genocide on the real owners. The US was built on slavery and the oppression of non-whites and on a bloody civil war which, 150 years after surrendering, the losing side does not accept that it lost, while the descendants of those slaves liberated by white men, at enormous sacrifice, refuse to show any gratitude and milk the victim ticket at every opportunity, acting as if white people owed them a living.
Then there is the guilt from massacre after massacre, to the tens of millions, all over the planet. It is a culture that forbids any non-conformity and sanctions violence against it. (Just ask any atheist in the Bible Belt.)
Add to this rabid religious conservatism and a failed public education system. Then, to put the icing on the cake, adopt the homophobic attitudes of religionards and make them social norms.
Make it so that anyone showing any sign of gender non-conformity will lose all their social status. Consider them a disgrace to their families and encourage those families to eject them from their homes. Then make sure they are beaten regularly if not killed.
Western culture perverts autogynephilic transwomen.
I give you this, gleaned from LisaT, an autogynephile, on Reddit:
‘As a late transitioner myself I don’t believe there is such a thing as ‘late onset transsexuals’. There may be late self-acknowledging transgender people, who have managed to hide/suppress their feelings for decades, but they are not late onset by any means.
I have had some very interesting conversations with people and how they tried to cope/cure/deny/run away from/etc their gender feelings.
(They do things like) STEM work, military service, dangerous sports, periods of hyper masculinity and so many others.
If you are in your 40s and 50s or older you grew up in very hostile anti GLBTI environment, so you hid. And those that managed to develop…coping skills lived long enough until there was a more accepting time (or those mechanisms broke down). Those that didn’t manage (to do) that died…one way or another. I just made it…by skin of my teeth.’
In Asia today, Lisa might well have transitioned at 15 or younger. Her life might have been very different. She might have taken hormones and fought the masculinisation of her body. She might have grown up a normal, well adjusted, socially functioning and happy transwoman. Western culture denied her that.
It is very hard to like Western autogynephiles. They tend to be aggressive, boorish, demanding, self-centred, narcissistic and bloody-minded. But maybe it’s not entirely their fault.
20 Replies to “The thought or image of oneself”
Its a good analysis that males in general have autogynephilia even if they aren’t trans, but what you describe can happen to women also. Forget about getting aroused at looking at yourself as a man or woman. Its a feel good dopamine high that a lot of transsexuals get when they look in the mirror and feel sexy. Many women also get the same feel good dopamine high from looking in the mirror. But with the male effects of testosterone it can be more powerful.
Also a good point is that males can condition themselves to like more sexual situations. As someone who may be an autogynephile as you describe, I’ve started out as a heterosexual male then after transition I
started having sexual experiences with men. While I initially liked that they made me feel more womanly and feminine, I also started to like the feelings and sensations and performing oral on men and touching and feeling their penises etc. In fact I finally realize I like performing oral on men much better than women! Anyways I can elaborate more..
Thank you for your comment. I have removed your remarks about me; I won’t make personal commentary about you here, and that is a reciprocal rule. For the record, I am gynandromorphophilic and my girlfriend is TS. However, I have never cross-dressed or sexually imagined myself as a woman, nor do I have any desire to. Hsu et al found that only around 40% of GAMP men are strongly enough AGP for it to be measured; I’m not.
As I said, the propensity to be aroused by their own sexualised self-image is something that all males do. AGP is a variation on the standard model. I do think women are aroused by their self-image as sexualised beings (otherwise, where do all those fantasies about being taken by silverback gorillas come from) but I would be surprised if the mechanism is the same. All the studies I have seen, for years, suggest that male and female sexualities are fundamentally different.
Do please elaborate more…
Ahh, that makes sense, you knew way too much about transsexuality to just be an outside observer!!
That guy Hsu is a grad student under Michael Bailey. It involved craigslist ads and hooking up erectile measuring devices to guys while they watched porn. It doesn’t account for any physical sensations two people have while engaging in contact, or emotional attachments. As you know there is way more to attraction then just visual erotic stimuli which is all this study contained.
From trying different positions and acts I’ve found I like the way a nice warm penis touches my body and arouses me, or doing breast play with a guys penis. I know several MTFs who could be described as autogynephiles who enjoy receiving anal sex. Biological males have a prostate gland that can give pleasure when penetrated so maybe lots of even straight men could enjoy receiving anal sex. I even know gay men who meet straight married men who want to receive anal sex from them.
Also as a child I always was initially drawn to masculine type women or women with certain male physical characteristics(Amazon women etc). I loved female super heroes. Some thought I was gonna turn gay when I was young. I had interest in different forms of domination type material also. This could be a root cause of my current enjoyment of experiences with men who take a dominant role during sex with me.
I do like your conclusion that western culture may have prevented me from expressing and trying things at a younger age!
I tried gay experiences before transition and the man on man scenario just didn’t do it for me. I needed to feel female. I have a lot more I can elaborate on. I’ll try and add to this comment later!
Hi, yes I know about Hsu and have discussed this directly with Dr Bailey. I think their results are pretty much consistent with observation, though I agree about the limitations on the methodology — which Dr Bailey himself accepts: they’re just trying to be ‘hard science’. I am really looking at this more from an ethnographic point of view (although I am closely involved because of my relations with TS women). So you are right, the emotional/erotic/romantic areas of autogynephilia tend to be less well investigated in the Blanchard/Bailey model, than the explicitly sexual. (I think this pisses a lot of AGP women off, but if you read into Blanchard, you’ll see that he ‘rules in’ the less physical elements; it’s just a question, I think, of these guys wanting to avoid ‘touchy-feely’ and keep it rooted in what can be statistically measured).
One area that is beginning to interest me, on the back of the Hsu/Bailey work showing that a large number of GAMP men are AGP, is ‘how many AGP men are there who NEVER cross-dress, and, if they don’t cross-dress, what is their affirmation as women?’ With AGP GAMPs it’s easy — TS sex workers are clear, they want to be penetrated. Being penetrated, whether Western gay culture likes it or not, makes a man a ‘woman’ sexually. (I use the term ‘not-man’, it comes to the same.)
So I am now looking at gay culture in the West and wondering about the ‘gay men’ who are not typical ‘primary gay’ — measured in many surveys as being small, light and effeminate, consistent with HSTS — and are instead large and masculine. And I am asking myself, ‘how many of these guys are non-crossdressing AGP men who get their affirmation from receptive anal sex?’ And I then ask myself whether that might have some bearing on the curiosity whereby feminine gay men are oppressed and actually abused by the broader (Western) gay community? Many researchers have noted this and I have had loads of PMs from gay men in exactly that position, who want to be feminine but are not allowed to because of bullying by other gays. Yet when I seen fem gays in Asia, they are both out and proud and very mutually supportive.
I’d be interested in your views. It’s on my research list for my next trip to Asia.
I think the term ‘submissives’ is used in the US.
Naz I also want to say that it is nice to talk to a Western person who is autogynephilic and not so deep in denial even the crocodiles can’t catch up.
I genuinely value your input, and I am interested in pursuing this issue of ‘MSM’ ‘straight’ married men who seek out gay men in order to be penetrated. I am sure they are non-cross-dressing AGPs getting their affirmation from being penetrated. Unfortunately, they are even more secretive and defensive than transgender AGPs. I also think men who are into ‘pegging’ — being penetrated by their wives using a strap-on — are also AGP and thier wives should be very careful about indulging this. (I think I might coin a term here — occult autogynephile: non-cross-dressing men who seek affirmation as women by being penetrated. Mmm sounds like a blog post.)
This anecdote might interest you. The last time I was dating (before I met my present GF) I had a wild night with a very cute TS. (I date both GG and TS when I am single.) This one was determined to penetrate me and so, after a fair bit of alcohol, I let her. It didn’t hurt but it was unquestionably one of the most unpleasant experiences I have ever had. Next morning (after fighting her off all night) ‘I told her we can be friends BUT…’ I thought a lot about that experience, it was most enlightening. I think the feelings of revulsion, self-hatred, and that this was happening to someone else, not me — are the closest a man like me will ever get to understanding gender dysphoria and how crushing it can be. As I say, it didn’t hurt physically, the issue was purely psychological. If that is how GD feels then I am certainly more sympathetic than I used to be.
Interesting story, (edited, no personal comments.)
I actually just read your piece that’s older regarding will Blanchard’s two type trans model survive. With the strong activists many AGP as you know pushing the political agenda to the media and governments I think likely the Blanchard theory will be ridiculed anytime its brought up in the media or government. So the activism looks like it will be on our favor for a long time.
I’ve taken a broad view on AGP, that it expands beyond just a sexual thing or doesn’t even have to be sexual. The idea that cross gender dressing or thoughts leads to relaxing ,or euphoric feelings of a dopamine high is in essence AGP. Does this mean that the person is trans or not in anyway who knows?? But can the person take the other gender role to get a better quality of life. That answer is a definitive sometimes. But we see the transition failures in AGP types who just can’t let go of their male machoness or don’t put in the work.
Online I’ve connected with many AGP type CDs and even some TS in Asia who even are out in the public dressed. They are often married or have GFs but describe AGP type sensations. I’m surprised you haven’t seen that many in your Asian visits or it is probably hard to spot unless you know them.
Re that piece, it is older and marked for updating — but there’s a list. I can’t actually remember what I said so I will promote it up the list.
Re Blanchard, at the moment, as far as the science goes, it’s completely uncontested. We know from large scale MRI testing that Western-profile AGPs have male brains. We also know that Western HSTS have brains ‘like women’ and in addition, with morphological changes in the same areas as are found in feminine gay men. So regarding HSTS at least, Blanchard is fully vindicated. However, note that even with those findings, we don’t know whether being HSTS or feminine homosexual caused the brain to change or vice versa; but the former is much more likely. (Zhou is out-of-date, unreliable, has no controls and is too small (6 subjects) to be considered today.) (See Rametti et al, 2011, Savic and Arver 2011 and Guillamon 2016 — all linked to from the links page. Guillamon is a must-read.)
Regarding AGP, I am sure we will eventually find out that it is innate, and that the differences we see in the various profiles, (Western and Asian particularly) are down to massive cultural differences, and the socialisation of Western AGPs as ‘hyper-masculine’ men and Asians as ‘not-men’. I just don’t think the ‘brain sex’ theory — completely debunked anyway — explains AGP at all — and the science backs that up. (Blanchard has never postulated a ’cause’ for either AGP or HSTS. He has just described the profile.)
My conjecture, observing the massive differences between Western and Asian profile AGPs, would be that Western ones have male brains because of their years of socialisation as men. The literally learned to be men, alongside masculine boys and even went further, became ‘hyper-masculine’. That would almost certainly affect the brain. It would be interesting to see a parallel study of Asian profile AGPs, which I have no doubt would show morphology somewhat more similar to HSTS/fem gays/women — and thus demonstrating finally that the brain issues are to do with socialisation and are not causative.
Regarding ‘activism’, the ‘strong activists’ by whom I imagine you mean the likes of James, McCloskey Conway, and so on, have shown themselves to be a disgraceful pack of liars and male bullies; nobody capable of serious analysis gives their views two thoughts. Men trapped in men’s bodies, as Lawrence puts it. They may have invaded social spaces (as they do women’s spaces) but science is not listening, thankfully.
As regards Asian AGP CDs, yeah I know plenty. They are somewhat more obvious in Thailand than in the Phils and elsewhere, however. Further investigation is on my list for the next trip. As a first impression, they appear to come from a more wealthy/middle-class/Westernised family background, which ties in to the observation that Western profile AGP transsexuals in Asia are also often from such backgrounds (See Ian King.)
I think there is a degree of opportunism. These individuals may have more to lose/less to gain from being TS, whereas for those from less well to do/more traditional backgrounds, being TS is a legitimate and potentially lucrative career and lifestyle. Asians are incredibly competitive and they know that to succeed in the prostitution/pageant/cabaret/modelling scenes, they have to be totally committed. But I have not yet interviewed enough to really get solid data there.
Those advocates are older ones from the whole Bailey book thing. They did act aggressive and irrational in their arguments or counter claims not using facts but instead personal attacks.
The new wave of advocates who many come from an AGP type background can be found on Ted talks for example. Also Recently at the Democratic Convention in the USA there was a trans speaker who if you saw would likely fall into the AGP type category.
The Obama government has passed federal executive orders to allow trans women to use the bathroom they identify with. This is largely from a push by activists who grew up educated as middle class or wealthy white men, and advanced their careers as men before transitioning. Mara Keisling is one who runs the National Center for Transgender Equity. There are also the activists from the Caitlyn Jenner show that come to mind.
The AGP transwomen are the ones that have the education, money and influence to push the trans agendas etc.. So Blanchard theories will be hard to be accepted by mainstream liberal media outlets.
Not sure what you are willing to share, but have you dated or been with a Western AGP woman?
The younger AGP background women of the last 10-15 years are much more attractive and often as attractive as the Homesexual background ones.
Many shemale pornstars can be described as AGP. Especially when they claim to be lesbian.
I think AGPs are way different than hetero men in many cases. Look at the scenarios where AGPs have sex with men, or AGPs have sex with each other. I’ve done both.
I know of a few couples where an AGP woman is married to a man, thats been going on a few years. In one case the man is a crossdresser so I’m sure that contributes to it. Also know an AGP who has been dating a trans man for a longtime.
On the flip side I am close friends with homosexual background transsexuals who are obsessed with their bodies and taking lots of selfies and admiring themselves. They go to extremes like putting silicone in their body and face to achieve a more feminine figure and this obsession seems to never end. They go over the top in their makeup and dress as well. They certainly don’t do this just to get men as they get men without doing any of this.. Is this AGP?? I certainly think so!!!!
I think most Western activists are classic Western profile AGPs. It is sad that they don’t recognise the science, because it undermines their credibility in all areas.
I don’t think this is my — or any other man’s — decision, but I have no issues with transwomen using female toilets etc. I do have a big issue with bearded men in suits who say they ‘identify as’ women insisting on using them. I don’t think gender exists just to oppress women, I think it’s innate. When I researched ‘Why Men Made God’ I reviewed hundreds of publications, mostly peer-reviewed papers, about traditional and tribal cultures. I could not find ONE where there was NO difference of gender expression between the sexes. Even in societies like the Bugis in Indonesia, which has 5 recognised genders, people adopted the gender profiles they felt appropriate to their inner sense of self. In the West, this has consequences of privilege. If you are a man, you get male privilege, if a woman, female (yes it does exist) but no way can you present as a man in order to retain male privilege and then insist on having female privilege — to use women’s facilities — AS WELL. Yes, social gender stereotypes do exist. Yes people can be any gender they like, but they have to accept the package of social consequences that comes with their expressed gender.
I don’t think AGPs are really like hetero men at all, except in terms of their socialisation and education thereby into how to be men, and to access male privilege.
I have never dated a Western-profile AGP woman, but that does not mean I wouldn’t. However, my experiences with Asian-profile AGPs was one of the things that made me change my view, that nearly all Asian TS are HSTS. They’re not. They just don’t grow up learning to be men or expecting male privilege. They are usually very nice, well-adjusted people. I would say that HSTS are more sexually motivated towards male partners than AGPs.
There is no doubt that Asian AGPs can be absolutely gorgeous, and I agree- we are seeing much younger AGPTS in the West now. You’re right about the pornstars, 100%. Consider Lisa Lawer, a 5’10” Brazilian who eventually detransitioned, went back to being a man and married his cousin.
Although it’s not always the case, many scenes of TS ‘lesbian’ porn feature an obvious AGP and a probable HSTS. However I know of cases where two AGPs are in ltrs.
As for the body enhancements, yes of course. In Asia, both types are crazy about this. There is not a TS in Asia who can walk past a mirror. Can’t be done. (And as for sex in front of one — yahoo!) And yes of course, it’s autogynephilia. As you must realise by now, I think autogynephilia, ‘love of oneself as a woman’ is the stimulus for all Mtf transsexualism, and what you see are the differences between primary homosexual transsexuals and the rest — who, in Asia, learn to be attracted to men. I think Blanchard was right to identify AGP as a function of male sex drive, I don’t agree with him that HSTS are excluded. Which tells us that male sexuality at least, is far more fluid than many would like us to believe — and not just churchmen — conservative pseudo-scientists like Steven Pinker and Jared Diamond as well.
The real difference has nothing to do with orientation, though there may be on-average differences in body size etc; the main differences in the West are due to socialisation. The classic Blanchard AGP socialised as a man. However, if Nuttbrock (2009) was right, and this is supported by observation in Asia, the classic, late transitioning, older, married pseudo-heterosexual AGP profile is going to die out, simply because AGPs transition much younger. There will still be AGPs and they will likely still be a majority. But they’ll be more like the Asian profile — or really, like the profile everywhere except in Anglo-Saxon and especially US culture. Which leads me back to a point I made somewhere — it’s Anglo-Saxon homophobia that makes angry older transwomen, not autogynephilia.
There was a study out there by Amy Veale, an agp trans woman on the sexualities of trans women. She was politically correct and didn’t use the word AGP of course, but found that these types of trans woman had a pattern of interest in feminization stories, attraction to women, trans women and attraction to feminine type men. I can agree with this.
When I talk to men attracted to transwomen some even tell me they like feminine twink guys as well. So possibly an attraction to anything feminine with a twist is what triggers the attraction in these guys.
I’ve been with a few guys who were really attracted to me but when we got together and they saw my penis, they got completely turned off. Its like they wanted to get out of there as quick as possible. We finished the encounter but I kept my panties on.
If you ask trans women about what they are attracted to you will here the AGP types say things like “I’m attracted to the person not the gender” or “I’m pansexual/bisexual etc..” The homosexual transsexuals will straight up say they are attracted to men and cock only!!! No ambiguity!!
Here is a interview link to a shemale porn actress who describes what she is attracted to in the interview . Its a few years old but relevant. She talks about masturbating to fantasies of women, but only will fuck mostly men because she can play the female role.. AGP right here..
Hi Naz — are you sure Amy and not Jamie Veale? If Jamie I know the work…it might even be on the links page. I will read it again.
I think you’re right about the attraction to feminine twinks, so I concur. I put that slightly differently in a convo with Bailey — ‘boys more feminine than it’s possible for a boy to be’. I am sure that is a big part of the attraction, certainly by non-AGP GAMP men. But any sign of masculinity, like hairy legs, masculine manners attitude, anything — instant switch off. I mean I have been with TS who have well, pretty boyish bodies, skinny hips no boobs, the ‘femboy’ type. Didn’t bother me at all, in fact one I really liked but she had some issues. But masculine — as in ‘adult male’ — nope. I mean I have turned girls down because of that.
Penises don’t bother me, they can be kinda cute. You have to recognise what you are. In any case after years dating TS, you know, these taboos become meaningless. I think most men like for their partners to cum (well I do) and with the d, you damn well know it. No faking! So that is a sexual reward that is, like all such, self-reinforcing.
You are smack on the money on the responses and well said! There is absolutely no confusion in an HSTS’ head. These are — at least in sexual terms — very focussed and driven people. No ambiguity at all. I use this sort of distinction to try to sort HSTS from AGPs in Asia — often it’s easy, sometimes not, though, and you have to ask. Also an AGP will say ‘I really liked being around girls’, or ‘I really liked doing girly things’. An HSTS will just say ‘I was having massive crushes on men from the age of 6.’
I will watch that clip tomorrow, it’s late here now.
Thanks, Naz, I am enjoying this exchange of ideas.
“ the attraction to feminine twinks ” How is this different from pederasty? Aren’t “twinks” teenagers or they appear to be teenagers?
I wonder if there is a chart that takes all of the slang for various sexuality / gender terms and ties them to a scientific medical definition? Is there sufficient medical terminology?
You appreciate this is an older article that has been reposted. That said, my views have evolved. Today I would say that pederasty is a major component in modern male Western homosexuality, they just try to hide it. I think the ‘egalitarian’ model is a canard, a confection invented to get round social attitudes in the US. I don’t think that attraction to masculine men by masculine men exists at all. Attraction is either ‘gender organised’ in which one party becomes a girl or ‘age organised’ which is pederasty. However I think that modern pederasty is status rather than strictly age organised.
In your article “Do trans attracted men crossdress” you talk about AGP crossdressers meeting at parties for AGP sexual thrills and that the sexual interest is narcissistic.
From my experience in the past at these events and from talking to soo many others, an AGP CD who gets physical with another AGP CD there is a component of getting aroused at the thought of themselves as women, but also they look at each other as women and are attracted to the female appearances of the other person similar to their heterosexual interests. They see the other person as they would a female partner and the added kick is their AGP fantasy.
Also to add is there is a lot of mutual masturbation and oral sex versus anal sex in these sorts of interactions. One thing is males enjoy playing with their own penis, so its another twist when they get excited playing with another man’s penis.
In my experience with trans attracted men who don’t crossdress , they get narcissistic many times becoming obsessed with their penis and getting themselves off, versus the mutual experience. But women do that too! So the rationalization for AGP being narcissistic is that so is normal sex many times !!!!
I’m wondering if you discuss AGP vs HTS with trans women in Asia do they get puzzled and have a hard time grasping such a concept??
From reading interviews with HTS women in Asia, they seem to love using their cock and feel proud of what god gave them.
I think SRS surgeons get the bulk of their business from the AGP crowd. I still get puzzled why 50 plus year old men go on HRT and shortly after jump into getting SRS versus investing in other procedures and things to make them act and look more female.
I’ll come back to these but to answer the question about Asian AGP vs HSTS, yes they do often have trouble with understanding that. It’s because both types see themselves as ‘women inside’ and they place little emphasis on how they got there. Then the support network of Beki culture and its equivalents direct them towards seeking relationships with men, at an age when their sexuality and orientations are still unfixed. Usually, however, if you focus on which they felt first — powerful desire for men or being attracted to girls’ and women’s spaces and behaviours, they will get it (and it will be fairly clear to an observer.) Many Asian AGPs are absolutely stunning, remember.
Because there is so much less homophobia, the repression is less and so they don’t feel inhibited about having sex with men. For both HSTS and AGP it’s affirmative — sex as women. HSTS tend to be off the scale on libido, AGPs not so much, but then, hormones have an effect there too. I agree about the narcissism in sex, it’s a fundamental part and nothing wrong with it. As I said, things like sex in front of a mirror — or just mutual porn masturbation sessions — phone sex — all part of the show. (Asian HSTS in particular just LOVE gay porn.)
Yes all the HSTS I have known closely have been very fond of their cocks and really enjoy them. They would not be in any hurry for GRS. If anything it’s AGPs who are more reluctant about their cocks and even then by no means always. Not many of the TS I have known would want to penetrate, (though a few, yes,) but there are plenty of other ways to have fun. And they are most enthusiastic about them. (Remember I don’t go with professionals, just regular dating. In business things are completely different.)
Thanks for all this input Naz. I will be going over the older articles to tweak them so crit them as you like, it all helps.
Haven’t you written in later years that HSTS prefer to have their penis ignored?
It’s interesting to read these older articles and see how your thinking has evolved.
In Asia do both AGPs and HSTS start taking. Estrogen in puberty?
Yes, HSTS tend to be avoidant, that is they do not want their penises to be touched, but this varies in intensity. Again this is an older areticle as you say and my thinking has evolved. I do go through them to keep them up to date but it can be a lot of work to get them all.
Here, HSTS typically start hormones at ages 11-13 while AGPs begin 16-18.
I live in the US and have never met a gay man who didn’t have a girlfriend in high school or college. Most have the same canned response when asked about it “I don’t want to talk about it.”
There are a few who differed. One had live in relationships with both men and women and liked and enjoyed sex with both. He frequented bath houses in San Francisco and had sex with hundreds of men too. His great love was a man whom he described as the most masculine man he ever knew. I don’t know what his sexuality was, I just assumed he was gay.
Others have been men with children who have been married to women many times. I think for social / business reasons or perhaps wanting to have children. One fellow has lived with a smaller man who had a very youthful appearance which the older man was proud of. The younger man started to get plastic surgery as he got older anxious to maintain and youthful face and seemed to be concerned with staying slim. The older fellow did not seem to care about his own appearance and just aged naturally.
Another friend was extremely youthful looking for his first 35 years or so and then started to have plastic surgery on his body under pressure from his current boyfriend – a bitchy, domineering man who seemed to bully him and use him. Making him work for him for free, controlling money, etc.. He was like a bird kept in a gilded cage and it took a number of gears for him to build up the courage to leave. His ex had ingratiated himself with my friend’s parents so he never really has been free of him although both have moved on. His ex still stays in touch with the parents and fosters ideas that there is something amiss with their son – perhaps weaknesses, needs to be controlled, etc.. I’d describe the ex as a narcissist. The ex came from trailer trash but transformed himself in to a ‘genteel’ background whereas my friend came from an educated well off background – grew up in nice houses as did his parents and grandparents, etc., had disposable income for nice things in life and social acceptance.
All of your writings are very interesting and give me a lot more insight. I see now there is no such thing as just being ‘gay’.
‘Gay’ is a broad label for a wide spectrum of diverse behaviors and types.
At the same time in the US there is a push to normalize pederasty and pedophilia – not just allowing anyone to use a ladies bath room. Also there are large numbers of teen age girls who are declaring that they are trans and many who go on to later declare that they are not.
Just the other day actress Ellen Page declared herself a transman and will now go by Elliot Page. She is married to a woman. Prior to this she described herself as a lesbian.
What’s the likelihood that a lesbian or transman and an AGP end up in a relationship? So far I haven’t seen this mentioned by you but Naz seems to suggest he knows of people in this type of relationship if I understand correctly. That makes me wonder how many lipstick lesbians – let alone run of the mill lesbians – are there out there who want to penetrate?
What I notice about Elliot page and his wife is that they both look alike. I’ve noticed this in other lesbian couples as well as with homosexual couples – seeking out partners who look like themselves / mirroring each other. Is that narcissism? It does seem narcissistic.
Another point of interest is whether pederasty runs in families? Is pederasty socialized?
Later in your writings I believe you mention that AGP seems to be tied to shemale porn in teen years and having a ETLE. Would banning shemale porn make a difference? What about siblings or adults dressing boys as girls when they are young. What affect does that have particularly on AGPs.
What if children pick up on a parents feelings that they wish they had had a child of a different sex or that one sex is better than the other have on lesbians, AGPs, etc.?
Then as you see they think that check marks them as female and go back to acting like their old male selves, male attitudes, voices, aggressiveness etc..
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